Robert Hargrove Interview
Robert Hargrove is a leading expert in the area of corporate coaching and a highly successfull executive coach and coach of coaches.
Hanley: Robert, how did you get started in the coaching field?
Hargrove: Well, I’ve done a lot of transformational training. I really like transformational stuff quite a lot. But I was also very interested in business. And I was working both as an organization called Relationships where we did our own transformational seminars. And at the same time I started working with Peter Senge, the guy who wrote The Fifth Discipline and his consulting company. So I was interested in both of those things.
So then about, I don’t know, maybe 1994, about 10 years ago, I got a request for a company I was doing some consulting with, Novaris, the other big drug company, in Switzerland to do a couple of days on coaching and I said, I’ll do that. I really didn’t actually know what I was doing because the coaching takes place in a very different kind of set of premises than training. If you look at the outcome of a public transformational training, you are looking for some kind of transformational experience together with other people and create a new mindset, a new shift in thinking or attitude that would result in a new quality of experience. In traditional corporate training, training is usually about trying to build and transfer skills which I think is basically impossible. I don’t think you can build any skill in three days unless it’s something like typing on a computer. So I started thinking about coaching. Instead of providing an experience, I started thinking about what a coaching program was about was helping people to accomplish something. So whereas training takes place in a domain of building skills and capability and experiences, coaching takes place in a domain of accomplishment.
So I presented this coaching workshop in which I had to make the distinction between training and coaching. And, for me, training was about a shift in mindset, building new skills and capabilities. But, again, you cannot achieve a result in a 3-day training program, can you, or a 4-day training program?
Hanley: It’s pretty tough.
Hargrove: You can get a shift in mindset. I think it’s about the most you can do. You can begin to outline skills and capabilities. But you’re not going to achieve a result like winning a downhill ski race or shooting under 80 in golf or achieving a billion dollars in sales. You can’t achieve those in a training. But training is kind of maybe like preparation for that kind of thing. So this work I did 10 years ago was based on the premise that coaching takes place in the domain of accomplishment. And the end product of the coaching was accomplishing something that was previously difficult or impossible. Or accomplishing something that was possible but doing it with a lot more power and velocity. And I talked about this at Novaris 10 years ago. And this idea seemed to make a lot of sense to people because people were used to going into these corporate training programs--I’m making a distinction in training, consulting, and coaching--and they walk out of there with a blue binder with the 10 points of leadership or marketing or finance or whatever. Or they go to a consultant and they get a report on what to do with their business. My thought about the coaching was that coaching is about---you give me…let’s decide whether it would be some high goal or aspiration for you. And then let’s work together over the course of a year or more to actually achieve that aspiration. And that seemed to ring in everybody’s ear at Novaris. And after that people suggested I write a book on coaching which basically at the time I didn’t really know anything about.
Hanley:And that book really took off for you?
Hargrove: That really took off. Then I got a call from a big---shortly after I wrote the book and still hadn’t really done that much coaching, if you follow me, I got a call from a big search firm and they were interested in buying Masterful Coaching out when at the time Masterful Coaching didn’t really exit. It was just the name of the book. And they said how much would you charge to do a year long coaching program? At that time I didn’t have any idea. They said, we charge about $100,000 for that. So I said, I think that’s probably what my thoughts would be as well. In a funny serendipitous way that gave me the idea to do a year long coaching program. And it also gave me the idea to charge big bucks. I got--let’s talk candidly between us--I got sick of doing these enrollment things for $300 or $400. You get a hundred people in the room each paying $300 or $400, that’s a hell of a lot of work. And I got sick of supporting the kind of volunteer organization you needed to do that.
Hanley: So how’s the book done for you over the years?
Hargrove:I do a lot of business on coaching.
Hanley:How many countries is it in?
Hargrove:It must be in at least a dozen countries by now. We just got a copy from Japan. I recently got one from Russia, now Saudi Arabia.
Coaching seems to be an idea whose time has come. And when I first was just doing my transformational seminars and working with Peter Senge, I thought coaching was a little idea. Now coaching has really superseded what Senge wrote about in his book, The Fifth Discipline. Those things he wrote about have become great content when people do the coaching. So, anyway let me just finish that story. So later I got a call from a guy that did a leadership seminar with me in Montreal about 5 years earlier. He said I’m now CEO of the biggest cell phone company in Canada. It was called Fido and he said that he was interested in some leadership help or whatever. I said, well, we have a new coaching program. It costs $100,000 for 1 year. So he goes, well, can you give us a better break in price because the Canadian dollar is worth less? So I said, I’ll charge you $85,000. And then we were off and running. And then we had other customers.
Hanley: Now, with all your experience coaching and also I know you’ve coached other coaches a lot, what are some key values that you think are important for the coach to display?
Hargrove: Key values, well, I think one of the things of a key value--I’m not sure exactly what my answer to this question will be--but one of the things that I do is standing for the person’s success. You’ve got to make their agenda your agenda. So whenever I’m in a coaching relationship, you know, they pay me the amount of money that I…they agree to engage me in a coaching relationship. My job is about standing for their success no matter what. I stand for their greatness. And I stand for their greatness even when they fall from it because people make mistakes or make errors in judgment. So as a coach you’re standing for people’s greatness. When I meet someone…one of the things that I’ve done…I don’t know, it’s just in my basic orientation, is I see potential in people that maybe they don’t see. I think maybe that’s one of the values: look for potential that people don’t see themselves. As a coach you’ve got to more excited about people than they are about themselves. Secondly, stand for people’s greatness even when they fall from it. Three is, one of the other values is to take the taxi meter off. Be available to people 24/7. My clients can call me any time. When I make a commitment to someone, I’m a hundred percent there. Be available. I think another one is when I say stand for people’s greatness, I think one of the things I do as a coach when I recognize someone’s potential, the second thing I do is I start to raise their goals and aspirations. A lot of people have very small aspirations. I remember I was coaching the Assistant Secretary of the Navy. And I asked him, “what’s your--he was a guy of 41 years old--I said, what’s your goal?” He said, “well, my goals are realistic. My aspirations are realistic.” And then we did some 360 feedback. And I talked to about at least 10 admirals in the Navy, Secretary of the Navy, and various others in the political realm, CEOs of big defense contractors. Everybody came back and said this guy could become the next…he could become Secretary of Defense. He could do Rumsfeld’s job one day. And all of a sudden I got him instead of looking at himself as a direct report of Secretary of the Navy, he started seeing himself as someone who could become Secretary of Defense of the United States of America. But I said, “In order for you to do a good job doing that, you have to really start to show up as a leader. Right now you’re showing up as a deal maker.” And I did some 360 feedback. And he showed up like a deal maker but not a leader. So I got him to aspire to be a transformational leader. And at the same time I got him to be someone who could transform the military, and I got him to see himself…to develop a big personal ambition for himself. So he said to me, I want to become the kind of leader who can transform the military, number one. And then I want to become Secretary of Defense. I raised his goals and aspirations in light of what was happening. So you stand for people’s greatness and raise their goals and aspirations. Then show them how they can win. That’s, to me, another very important governing value in coaching is that sometimes people have goals and aspirations but they don’t know how to win. And I think one of the jobs of a coach is to show people how they can win. Is this making any kind of sense to you?
Hanley: It sounds great. Do you make any distinction between coaching and motivating?
Hargrove: I look at motivating as just a small aspect of coaching. I help people discover the source of their own motivation. Like the guy, someone who wants to become the CEO, but he never admitted it to himself. He wants to become a great leader, but he never admitted it to himself. He wants to become the number one company in his industry, but he’s never really declared that. So I kind of uncover people’s motivation rather than try to motivate them.
Hanley: What parallel do you see between the kind of coaching you do with executives and sports coaches for example?
Hargrove: When I first started working on coaching, I kind of tried to stay away from sports coaching. It seemed like kind of superficial. But the more I thought about it, there’s a lot of parallels. What does a sports coach do? Mainly what they try to do is build a winning team that accomplishes something that people thought was impossible. The sports coach has to go there with an aspiration of building a winning team. You have to find the right players, and you have to show those boys how they can win. Interesting enough, if you go to people who are management trainers, they won’t tell you anything about that. They’ll tell you about, well, here are these 10 leadership attitudes you have to have or 10 team attitudes or 5 shared skills. With coaching, let me put it this way. The proof is in the pudding. You know whether some of the coaching was successful by whether you went to the Super Bowl - by whether you delivered a virtuoso performance with the orchestra - by whether a person went from being an average player on a sports team to being a great player - that is measured with real statistics and locker room behavior. Everything else I see in management training and leadership development is just all soft, soft stuff.
Hanley: How do you explain the success of coaches like Bob Knight, a Bill Parcells who seem to have very dominating approaches, but they still get the results?
Hargrove: Well, the first thing is…what’s interesting to me about Bill Parcells--I don’t know Bob Knight as well, but I did read some stuff about him--but Bill Parcells is an interesting guy. Whatever team you put him on that team starts to win. You put him on any team and within one goes by, they do maybe 30 or 40 percent better. The next year they’re contending for the playoffs of the Super Bowl. It happens every single time.
Hanley: But he challenges guys' manhood and he seems very manipulative.
Hargrove: He told a guy, “Why don’t you fall down on the field like a piece of dog shit. At least someone might slip and fall down. You might do some good that way?” The acid test for an effective coach--and this is a new comment coming from me which I never really thought it before--it’s not what your style is, whether your command and control style is very dominating. It’s not whether you’re empowering. It’s not whether you’re old or young or how many practices you have, whether you make people practice hard or soft. It’s whether you win or not. That’s the acid test. I think all these…I hate all this stuff with this behavioral management, leadership management development programs. They’re basically trying to have people have good behaviors. So you can have all those good behaviors and still flunk out as a leader. I remember I was working with a guy that was…I was doing consulting for the CEO of Philips Corporation. That’s someone who makes TV sets and whatnot. And there was a guy at Philips who was the head of Philips USA, all their products. And we did some 360 feedback on the guy. And he showed up brilliantly. He was an enlightened leader. He was empowering. He was inspiring. But you know what, his results stunk. Right after the 360 feedback, he was fired. But on paper he looked better than anybody else in terms of his leadership style. But he couldn’t achieve the result. He wasn’t a good enough coach to get results from his team. So the acid test of the coach is not the style. It’s the results. And you gave two very good examples. Bill Parcells is a great example. Bob Knight. But Bill Parcell’s protégée, coach Bill Bellecheck has a very different style. He’s very much more empowering, listens to the players, very focused, still very focused and very disciplined, but he passes the same acid test.
Hanley: What I’m wondering though is there some ingredient that the winners all share that if you don’t have at least that, you’re not going to be effective?
Hargrove: Some ingredient? Well, I’m not sure exactly what that is. But from my experience in working with managers and leaders one of the things, the role of the coach is to be a grounded observer. See, the coach is not on the playing field. You’re off to the side so you can see what is happening on the field that the people on the field don’t see. And I think that the best coaches are the best observers. And I work with people…and what I do when I’m doing a good job, is I help people see something that people don’t see that if they saw would make a difference.
Hanley: That’s very well said. And that may be “it” because you can do that in any number of different styles. But if you’re not doing that, there wouldn’t be much coaching happening.
Hargrove: You can have the greatest leadership and coaching style. You can have the best series. You can have the best practice drills. But you have to see something that other people don’t see. And you have to be able to tell it to them in a way that makes a difference. I’ll just give you an example. Have you heard about that formulation called the five phases of breakthrough?
Hanley: I think so. I don’t have them memorized.
Hargrove: Formulation, concentration, etc. Formulate them to break through, concentrate between the get go and get into action; build momentum is the third phase. The fourth phase is break though. The fifth phase is stability. So I was working with a group. And they were working on trying to produce a breakthrough in terms of oil exploration. And they kept coming up with more and more…they were doing more and more brainstorming and more and more formulation of the goals and the plan and the action steps. And at some point, I said, all of this sounds like brainstorming. And you guys are doing great. But you’re not moving forward. And you’ve got to move from this planning formulation to concentration which is intense, disciplined action. They couldn’t see that they were stuck in the formulation and needed to move from formulation to concentration. I saw that. Once I told them that, they were off and running. They started executing like hell, but it was just theorizing or strategizing. So I think a coach has a very good eye. Let’s put it that way.
Hanley: How would you compare coaching to therapy and counseling?
Hargrove: To me coaching is distinct. Coaching takes place in the domain of accomplishment. Coaching is not training. It’s not consulting. And it’s not therapy. See, none of those things are really actually intended to accomplish anything. The end result of a training, of consulting or therapy is not the same thing as a measurable, tangible, extraordinary result. Now, counseling…what is the objective of counseling? I think the objective of counseling is to make people feel better. Coaching takes place in the domain of accomplishment. But the best teams have players who are what? Are they sick people? Are they losers? The best teams have players who are winners. Great coaching takes place…you take people who are already winners to some degree. Or let’s say you take the people who are the most talented and you show them how individually and collectively they can win. It’s a generative process rather than a remedial process. Do you see what I’m saying?
Hanley: Well,it’s interesting that those most accomplished seem to be the most eager to be coached.
Hargrove: Exactly. Whenever I hear, well, you ought to come into our organization and coach Joe, he really needs it. That’s a sure sign to me that Joe isn’t the guy to coach. I found the most curious thing was the people who are most interested in coaching are the ones that on the surface least need it. The people most interested in coaching are the most talented, smartest, most driven, most accomplished, have the highest emotional intelligence, often times the best team players. And then they’re missing one or two things and if they had that they could be absolutely brilliant. So, coaching takes place in the domain of accomplishment. It’s generative. It’s creative. We’re creating something together. What we can create together, what we can achieve together, we couldn’t achieve individually or by ourselves. But therapy is remedial in nature. It’s about fixing…you need to go work with that person and fix them. Sometimes when you’re coaching you do need to fix something on a person. But the context of the coaching is achieving in a possible future. It’s not fixing the person even though you may need some therapy. You may need some behavioral change. You may need some attitude adjustment. You may need a different managerial leadership frame of reference. Do you follow what I’m saying? Maybe the best way of putting it is this. If you look at the tip of the leadership management development programs and you think of a boat, what they put in the bow of the boat is 3 day training classes, shifts in attitude and behavior, beginning competency that every leader should have, etc., etc., etc. With me, the bow of the boat with coaching is results, what results you want.
Hanley: What do you do when you find yourself coaching somebody and it becomes clear to you they’re not committed to being coached?
Hargrove: I don’t really have too many people like that because I screen them out. I choose my customers. They don’t choose me. So I start by asking, “Does this person have a big personal ambition?” That’s one question I want. Abraham Lincoln wanted to become president of the United States and he wanted to be respected by his fellow citizens. Do they have a big organizational ambition? Abraham Lincoln wanted to create the emancipation of the slaves.
Hanley: So you could have coached him pretty good?
Hanley: You could have coached him pretty good?
Hargrove: I don’t know. But, maybe. He had a lot of depression and stuff like that. He may have needed some remedial coaching too. Anyway, I ask if they have the willingness to be coached. Do they show up as a request for coaching? Do they have that attitude of learning, humility, curiosity? And I think one of the most important things is how we manage the coaching calendar because if I have to chase a guy then I don’t want to be his coach. I want him to chase me. So one of the best signs of successful coaching is the guy is calling me all the time. One of the red flags the coaching is not going well is I feel I’m chasing him. He’s not taking my calls. So one of the first things that will show up if the relationship is going sour or the guy doesn’t have the willingness to be coached is one, he doesn’t really listen to you. And two, he starts missing coaching phone calls and coaching meetings or finding excuses. But maybe the most important thing to keep a coaching relationship going is you have some goal that the person wants to achieve, some goal or aspiration that they’re very motivated to achieve. Two, they have a listening feel. This thing for you is very big. When I talk in a room of people, their heads turn and look at me versus look at their email. Do you know what I’m saying? Or look at the newspaper. There’s some people who I talk to, they won’t listen. So that’s a sign of the relationship going sour or there’s no action. How you know whether they listen is whether they did what you told them? Some guys may fight with me but then at the end of the conversation they go and do what I told them. But the ultimate breakdown is when you find you’re chasing them. You disengage. So I tell people…I remember telling one guy who worked for a big oil company, Conoco Philips--I said, “I’m going to tell you how this is going to work. I’m going to meet with you once a month. I’m going to talk to you once a week. That’s how the coaching process works. We’ve got to operate on this. We’ve got these goals that we want to achieve. And to do that we’ve got to operate in the same universe. If you don’t take my call or if I wind up chasing you around to set up meetings, then I’m not going to continue this. And I’ve already took all your money in advance. So you’re not going to be able to do anything about it.” That guy never missed a call.
Hanley: That’s a good set up.
Hargrove: Calendar integrity is very important. Get coaching on the schedule. Don’t leave it ad hoc.
Hanley: Now, as much as you obviously know what you’re doing, I would think we all can get off our game a little bit. At those times if you do notice it, that you feel like you’re off your game, what happens? What captures you? What triggers you? In other words, what do you struggle with to maintain your high level of coaching?
Hargrove: Let’s see. What if I get off my game? I’m not brilliant. At times I must be a 10. And at times I must be a 1 or a 2. It’s always been a discipline for me to try to add value with everything that I say. I want everything that comes out of mouth to be something that adds value. And if I get to a time that what I’m saying is not adding value, or I’m not sure how they add value, I call up and go and get some coaching myself. I might call someone up like you and say, I’m coaching this guy and he’s got this big meeting with the Board coming up. And I want to be able to say something that really makes a difference. This is what I’ve been thinking of talking to the guy about. What do you think? And I might do that with two or three different people that I know that they kind of like…I call them coaching colleagues or just plain colleagues. And they give me some ideas. And I get reinspired and off I go. One of things I do is I try to make sure…I tell people who I’ve hired as coaches, I say that you can get away with one bad coaching session. But you can’t get away with two. And a lot of times I’ll ask a customer. I’ll say, on a field of 1 to 10, how did you like that coaching session? They say it was, well, it was about an 8. I say, really, I thought it was a 2. And they say, no, it was an 8. Well, how can I make it a 10? I might ask for feedback like that. Those are the kinds of things that I would do.
Hanley: Do you think a parent can be an effective coach with their kids?
Hargrove: I don’t think I was very successful there. Kids don’t have that kind of listening field. Kids see you as an authority figure who is trying to control them rather than someone that’s knows their goals and aspirations and ideas of success and helps them to achieve them. I think as a parent, I’ve come on too strong. It’s like if you asked me if a husband can be good coach of a wife. I think you can do it. But I don’t think most people have the discipline to come from the empowering place with their kids. A lot of times, kids don’t even have goals and aspirations. I remember I talked to my kid, I said, “You should maybe think about being an entrepreneur, having your own business.” He said, “Dad, I just want to be a kid. Leave me alone.” So one of the things about coaching is you have to get inside people’s agenda. You have to get inside people’s goals and aspirations. If you do that, then people allow you to coach them. But if the kid’s agenda is only to have fun with his friends, it’s kind of hard to do that. Of course, I think a parent is always supposed to provide good values - character building stuff.
Hanley: You obviously see a lot of value in the independent coach. Do you think a manager can be effective as a coach with their team? What are the challenges there?
Hargrove: We, as managers, all have to be coaches. I think one of the fundamental roles of a manager is to be a coach and teacher. Now, one of the big challenges that managers face is…why, why when his manager comes to coach him he shows up as an asshole. And I finally realized…and also when I coach, I may coach, manage, some of my people show up as an asshole too. So I think the big difference is that when you’re coaching you’re standing for their success. You’re making their agenda your agenda. When you’re managing, you’re trying to get them to make your agenda their agenda. This is what I want to accomplish. And this is what I want you to do. Do you see what I mean? Versus what are you trying to accomplish. How can I help you be success?
Hanley: So when you’re coaching managers do you encourage them to…
Hargrove: I encourage them to make the people in their group successful in their terms consistent with the needs of the organization. If you’re all working in this organization, this organization needs to be successful. That’s a given. But my second phase…I always say, “What are your goals and aspirations?. What are the leadership challenges, your business challenges, your career challenges? Maybe I can help you be successful. And at the same time, make your organization more successful.” Go back to that example of Abraham Lincoln. Abraham Lincoln, his goal, his ambition, was to make his fellow citizens remember him for the contribution he made. So now then he had to figure out…and there was one point where Lincoln--I was reading a book about him--was very depressed. And he said something like he’d commit suicide except that nobody would have remembered anything that he’d done to prove that his life was worth anything. So he developed an ambition to be respected by the other people. And he then had to concoct a vision for first for his own self and then the nation which was freedom. But personal ambition can drive organizational ambition that makes a difference in the society.
Hanley: What do you think is the greatest challenge in corporate culture today?
Hargrove: I think leaders need to provide inspiration. And you need to create a climate of inspiration, possibility and opportunity. And corporate cultures seem to kind of break down into a culture of resignation. Most companies if you go around, you don’t find people excited. You find them resigned, frustrated, turned off. And probably because…that problem exists because leaders…many business leaders - they don’t know how to build a business. All they know how to do is to control it. So I found that in companies where there’s more inspiration are companies that are growing and where the leader has an inspired vision of what’s possible for the company. And people see what’s possible for themselves within that, and they’re given opportunities. And they are saying, “If you’ve got a way to grow this business, I want to hear about it.” But the other guy is just saying, “No, you can’t do this; you can’t do that. They’re creating too many loops for people to jump through – bureaucratic hoops. And then people just get frustrated, turned off, resigned, why bother. So I think that ‘why bother’ attitude is probably the biggest problem of corporate culture.
Hanley: Let me try a kind of a philosophical point on you and see if you think there’s anything to this. I wonder if some part of what’s creating the resignation is this underlying premise that we’re trying to convince people that the work we’re doing is important. Now what happens, I believe, is that people eventually begin to question that. And there you have resignation.
Hargrove: Me too.
Hanley: Now what if you adopted a different stance like I don’t know if this is important. Now, why don’t we just play like it is important because that will empower us, we’re learn more, we’re have more fun, and we’ll make a bigger difference. Do you think there’s anything to that?
Hargrove: I don’t really register that. But I don’t disagree with it. It’s not something I talk about. But people have to find meaning in what they do. I think people need to feel that their work is important to be involved with it.
Hanley: But do you think there’s a value in…
Hargrove: In taking a stand that something is important even though it wasn’t?
Hanley: It becomes meaningful because I declare that it’s meaningful to me rather than trying to find the reality of its meaning.
Hargrove: It’s actually always amazed me how people can find meaning in all the most dreary kinds of work. People find work meaning…people’s work is inherently meaningful to them generally speaking. I have to find very high grandiose…I have to feel like…for work to be meaning to me, I have to feel like I’m transforming an individual, an organization, or the world. A lot of other people, they don’t need all that inspiration. They can find meaning in just cleaning something up.
Hanley: I mean there’s some meaning there. But if you really want to turn on a department or a whole organization, you may need more than that. You want to inspire them.
Hargrove: You’ve got to inspire people with something that raises their goals and aspirations. That why I said it’s one of the most important things to make people feel like they’re part of something bigger than themselves that makes a difference.
Hanley:Is there an author or certain philosophy that underlies the work you do that you keep coming back to and reminding yourself of?
Hargrove: I guess I don’t really think of anybody in particular. I’ve become more interested in historical people. I gave you examples of Lincoln, Washington, Jefferson. I’m interested in what leaders have dreamt about. I like to see leaders who have passed the acid test that made some kind of difference. What I’m talking about is basically pretty simple. Coaching takes place in the domain of accomplishment. But you need to accomplish something within a vision. Then you need to help people figure out how to do that. We don’t really look like we have that much competition as most of the time when we talk to people what they do with coaching it’s just shifting. They start with lists of behaviors and attitudes and try to get people to change those things. So I don’t have a particular author in mind. There’s a guy I like. His name is James McGregor Brunch. He wrote a book called Transformational Leadership. I like him.
Hanley: For someone who aspires to be a corporate coach, what do you suggest for them? What do you recommend for them?
Hargrove: I think they should read my book Masterful Coaching.
Hanley: Yes. Absolutely.
Hargrove: And I think they should coach people to achieve a result and shift their attitudes and behavior consistent with that. But focus on the accomplishment not on the behavior.
Hanley: Do you think anyone can learn to be a coach if they’re committed to it?
Hargrove: Everyone is capable of giving pretty good advice if they get themselves out of the way. But with the coaches we use at Masterful Coaching we say you have to have these four qualities. One is…you have to have gravitas You have to be able to walk into the room and have enough natural authority that the CEO will be impressed enough with you that he will want to talk to you or the middle manager or whoever. Two is you have to have some kind of track record of business results. If you don’t know how to produce a result you’re going to fail at being a coach because coaching is about results. Let’s take for example you were talking to me about your father. I don’t know that much about your father. But he’s obviously…he’s run an organization. He’s produced results. He’s still in business. Do you see what I’m saying? He may not be a billionaire. He may not have run a multibillion dollar company. But he’s had some track record of getting business results with some bottom line responsibility. And then three, I think people need to…they need to have some transformational results. They need to be able to transform human attitudes and behavior, human thinking, attitudes, behavior, a paradox, shift paradox, attitudes, behavior. You can be someone that’s going to get results but you don’t know how to shift people. Four, I think you need to have…I don’t know exactly how to call it--wisdom, compassion, and humor. Or you could call that emotional intelligence. You’d have to be able to respond to situations without just react to them. And then lastly, five, you have to pass the airport test. If someone is stuck in the airport with you for three hours they would enjoy your company versus wanting to run away.
Hanley: Thank you very much for your time.
Hargrove: My pleasure.